10-04-00 05:54 PM
Verant currently does not have a 3rd party developer program. This means that other developers can't develop utilities and add-on's for EverQuest with Verant's approval.
What are your comments on this?
10-04-00 06:12 PM
Edit
> I then received communications from Verant asking me to cease & desist such activities.
I'm certainly no attorney, and I understand that if Verant wants to throw money at lawyers, problems can be caused for you Ben... but I truely believe they have absolutely no legal footing on this matter and, quite possibly, if they were to take legal action, I believe a good attorney on your end could see to it that not only would they lose, but would be forced to pay your legal costs as it would be a frivolous suit against you.
You've stolen no intellectual property from verant, and you've violated no copyright nor patent laws in your product. One company does not have the right to tell another how to do business or what business to be in; they're only trying to scare you. As long as nothing you've done is illegal, you're completely within your rights to develop, maintain, and sell this product.
10-04-00 06:33 PM
Edit
oh well, take it off the server reg crap & let us use it anyways screw Verant!
Grab yourself a Gamevoice & set that up, worx so killer
they can't stop that, & if they do I say murder is needed!
10-04-00 06:35 PM
Edit
Hrm - want to really piss them off? Opensource it... <g>
10-04-00 06:40 PM
Edit
Quite simply - this sucks. Verant has been the only game in town for far too long. I will be glad to send my money elsewhere.
10-04-00 06:41 PM
Edit
There are a few things that I do not understand about this issue.
Firstly, how can they have any legal recourse against the developer of this program? Making such a program is not in violation of the EULA. EQM has been sold with the normal warnings that VI really doesn't like the application and would prefer that it no longer exist (basically buyer beware).
I can see this program having three future avenues.
1. after checking on the legalities of making such a program (which I assume you have). You just redouble the user warnings and push on.
2. the program goes back to the underground and or becomes more in the light of ShowEQ.
3. The program simply goes away and Verant's bully tactics win again.
We know that Verant has a history of being lazy in fixing things and they don't get ban happy for the most part. I've only heard of about 50 total people being banned in the last 16 months or so. Considering the total user base, that is an insanely low figure. Still yet, the latest advertising of EQM was probably what brought it so much to Verants attention.
I think that EQM might even have another alternate method of providing service that Verant can't touch. If you were to put in some features to aid the disabled, they would be VERY hard pressed in anything that they did to/with the program. That is a whole new pile of legal costs that Sony/Verant would not like to tangle with. Maybe something to think about.
Personally, I still can't wait for the day that something else worth while comes out and I can give the finger to Verant once and for all.
I can't imagine a worse public representative for a corporation than Gordon.
10-04-00 06:44 PM
Edit
this post is sent in regards to John Smedley's email to Ben Ziegler asking for him to stop further work on EQ macros
I am impaired and have the Use of a single hand after a work related accident. Eq Macros has been invaluable to me as it allows me to play with nearly the same lvl of agility that a non impaired person would have
Eq macros dosnt allow me to cheat, but it does allow me to play as if I wernt disabled. as a long time customer
verant should respect my wishes in this matter
this is part of a email I just sent to verant
10-04-00 06:44 PM
Edit
Hmm...
It was bound to come to a head, but realisticly, there's no way Verant can detect this program, unless they design an invasive EQ client that can scan your HD, or at least you RAM.
As far as them trying to nail you for actually writing it, I'm behind one of the other posts in this thread, I don't think you did anything wrong legally.
What I would do, if I was you is contact a lawyer and just go throught the terms and greements for EQ and check for any other potential laws that might have popped up recently.
Especially look at the Digital Copywright Milenium Act (DCMA) which was what the MPAA used against 2600. It specifically dealt with reverse engineering etc.... De-CSS and all that.
Good luck, but personally I don't think many people are going to Email Verant and say that kind of stuff and there's no way they're going to develope a 3rd party developer program.
:-)
Good luck
10-04-00 06:48 PM
Edit
They said its cheating ... I disagree (Lum the mad website)
And they do nothing to stop all the low levels players running around with high levels equipments, that is cheating.
10-04-00 06:55 PM
Edit
I'd write to Verant about this, but I already voiced my opinion about them by cancelling 3 family accounts when Diablo 2 came out. If you are making any money off this ben, I'd say get a lawyer.
10-04-00 07:07 PM
Edit
Make the program freeware. Can they shutdown other EQ monitoring and cheating sites? NO!
10-04-00 07:28 PM
Edit
Just sent them a mail BEN,
I'm behind you 100% and I'm willing to cancel my account if they shut you down.
Good luck Ben
10-04-00 07:33 PM
Edit
I have Repetitive Motion INjury, this makes the game playable without agrivating my injust. If they have forced a shutdown, Im going down to federal court and filing an Americans with Disabilities Act suit against them for preventing me from accomodating my disability in their publicly offered service. If Casey Martin can get a Golf Cart from the PGA, then dammit I want EQM or something similar.
10-04-00 07:40 PM
Dear Mr. Ziegler,
First off I would like to compliment your program EQ Macro's once again and repeat that EQ Macro's put a new life into EverQuest for me. I will not be asking for a refund. You worked very hard providing a program that was complimentary to EverQuest and I do not feel it would be fair to take back the thrill you gave me. I have been playing EverQuest since beta and have several 50+ characters and countless alt's. Not to mention FIVE accounts. Just as EQ Macro's was released I was ready to QUIT/DELETE all my characters because of the time sink and newly developed carpal tunnel syndrome, which is a direct result of playing EverQuest. Through word of mouth I was told to check our your program. I was in awe to say the least. I suddenly did not want to quit EQ but wanted to play seriously again. I enjoyed EverQuest and was relieved not to have the pain in my wrist and hand while doing repetitive tasks such as sense heading and practicing spells. How can this hurt the balance of the game? The program is available to all if they wish to use and pay for it.
I also have Ultima Online and still have my four accounts. I almost quit Ultima Online when they tried to "scare" people from macroing. Then, in time they supported approved macro programs as long as it was not unattended macroing. I see no reason that Verant shouldn't take the same stand.
I will go back to Ultima Online/Asheron's Call if they do not support you and QUIT EverQuest as I cannot play EverQuest without aid in continually clicking my mouse due to doctor's orders. There are many MMORPG's coming out soon and I will be the first on the bandwagon. Face it a lot of us are just hanging around waiting for the next best thing anyway as Verant still has done nothing to alleviate server crowding on the server I am on which is very irritating in it's own right and countless other issues. Just a sidenote, I had to quit playing my bard because of the strain it put on my wrist twisting songs.
Wake UP Verant. You would be HONORED and PRIVILEDGED to have someone as knowledgeable about programming and up-to-date with player's wishes, needs, and updates as Ben Ziegler has been. Not to mention his customer support and the renewed interest in playing EverQuest EQ Macro's generates. I KNOW I am not the only person who feels this way and I am sure there will be plenty of people backing Ben Ziegler.
Lastly, Ben it has been a pleasure using EQ Macro's and I only wish continued success for your programming passion. Wouldn't it be cool if Verant actually hired programmers as innovative as you are? Follow YOUR "vision." I will.
Respectfully,
Dreadwidow
PS BTW, I am also emailing Verant lobbying to support 3rd party programs.
10-04-00 07:56 PM
Edit
To the anonymous person with one hand:
Congradulations, you now have the basis for a very strong
ADA lawsuit. I'd say go for it and soak them for some millions.
I would suggest you check out this site if you are intersted in
inital examination of this very real possibility:
http://janweb.icdi.wvu.edu/kinder/document.htm
There's not much difference between the use of this program
and the use of a wheelchair ramp to get into a building housing
entertainment facilities, like a movie theater, a stadium, a bar,
a video gaming store like one would find at a shopping mall, or any
number of other facilities.
10-04-00 08:20 PM
Edit
Ben,
Verant could have added all the features you put in EQMacros to the EQ game a long time ago. They are certainly not cheat features. The point is they did not add them for one reason or another and now that you have finally given us those extras it has shown them up .. they don't like it!
For me the greatest feature other than simple macroing, was your developing the ability to view a web page while playing a game. Whats cheating about that? Its got nothing to do with EQ and I do it anyway by using a second computer. Before getting a second computer there was nothing more infuriating than having to exit the game to view a map or go to a bulletin board so as to get current prices on articles for sale. Location display, we can do it pressing a /loc hotkey all the time and so on. Its just that Verant didn't want to do it and now they are being shown up.
Look to UO's third party programs. The developers had to fight tooth and nail with OSI to get the 3rd party programs instated in the first place, now OSI incorporates many of those programs into its own UO game. In a way that is like stealing the 3rd party developers work.
Verant should learn, like OSI and UO, to work around the 3rd party macroing etc so as to keep the field level. In lots of ways this made UO a LOT better game, with Power Hour, moving around to lumberjack and mine, moving around to spell cast and on and on. This eliminated a lot of imbalance between players and their speed of "leveling". Verant should do likewise!
I wouldn't give up. At least continue with your Webpage shell and the ability to access maps, even if it means shelling out of EQ briefly. Its a heck of a lot better than exiting the game and has nothing to do with gameplay. The macroing bit may take a little more fighting to win, displaying location etc is neither macroing nor doing anything that players without EQMacros can't do with a hotkey.
Its a political game Ben, call their bluff.
10-04-00 10:17 PM
Edit
The only reason I bought it was to use the maps, I don't even care about, or use the macros.
Is that still considered cheating?
10-04-00 11:02 PM
Edit
Might you be able to release a free version of the program so that the people who are willing to take the risk to use it would still be able to enjoy the options? People could post it on their web pages, so you wouldn't have to have it on yours... Or might that get you into trouble?
10-05-00 02:02 AM
Edit
OK here is the skinny. They have now drawn a line in the sand and you can now get outside help.
You are making a program that allows people to use their program that may have disabilities. You're also selling the program as an outside application that does not use any of their code or DLLs. Bottom line you have every right to create and sell to people that may have disabilities or may be recovering from CTS.
I suggest everyone goto the link posted and go through the "get legal assistance" link. Do it as an individual.
The basis of your complaint is this. Everquest is not allowing the use of any 3rd party software. This discriminates against persons that may have a handicap. There is basicly no difference between this and a Bowling alley that refuses to put in wheel chair ramps. EQ purposly disables the Handicap assistance APIs in WIN9x and Windows 2000. EQMacros is the only tool available to the disabled players due to Verants blatant disabling of the Operating systm's tools.
10-05-00 02:13 AM
Dear Ben -
There's only one reason Verant sent you that letter.
Money.
You're making some money, and they aren't getting any of it. That's basically it. They want at least a piece of the action, but more than likely they want all of it. This letter from Smedley is simple intimidation. It happens all the time.
The legalities are this: You sell a product that relies on the existence of another product. It's like selling tires or inkjet cartridges - there's absolutely nothing illegal about it and you are completely within your rights to create, publish, and sell anything you like, as long as you are not using copyrighted code or patented intellectual property.
Verant, in order to prevent you from selling your product, has to convince you to do so of your own free will. A threatening letter from a law firm serves two purposes: an implied threat, and a legal "stake in the ground". If there is ever any legal action taken, Verant will have to show that they asked you to stop shipping your product as soon as they found out that the product existed. If it can be shown that Verant knew about your product for several months (say) and did nothing, that would constitute "implied consent" on their part, and this would weaken any position that they might have. So, a letter is ALWAYS the first step. A letter has a date on it, and the date is often the only the important thing on it.
But the letter, in and of itself, means nothing. It's simply a request. The fact that it came from a law firm means nothing. It does not carry force of law, and you should not take it to mean that. Agreeing to take the product off the market shows good faith, and that will work in your favor later, should this ever go farther than a simple letter. But, you should make it clear to Verant that you do NOT intend to keep the product of the market permanantly. You should send them a letter of reply in which you state your intention to resume sales as soon as you are satisfied that you are on firm legal ground w/r/t the sale of your product. This will put their legal people to work (costing Verant money). You should be very aggressive about this - the more they have to spend in creating a legal position the more likely they are to give a little.
Believe it or not, this kind of thing is not at all new, and every time it has come up in court, the persons selling the "add-on" product have won. Kodak film, HP inkjet cartriges, software developers vs. Windows.
Please contact a lawyer in your area if you intend to see this through. I hope that you do - it's a great product which is obviously a labor of love for you. I doubt that Verant is interested in supporting ANY 3rd party developers. It's a hassle for them, it exposes their game engine to outside scrutiny, and it's much more profitable for them to sell the product themselves.
Best of luck.
10-05-00 02:19 AM
Edit
Seriously Ben, what can Verant do to you? Let me put it this way:
You aren't touching EQ at all. You aren't decripting the data stream sent within EQ to decode where monsters/players are at any time. You aren't giving the players ANY info that they can't get otherwise, from within or outside the game.
So, basically, in my opinion, like I said before, Verant is pissed at you because you thought of this first.
I will be composing a message to Verant shortly about this (fortunately I have a fake E-mail account to send it from), and explain why I think EQ Macros should stay around/get official support from Verant.
And personally, I'll keep using this program. If they ban me, (bleep) them. They don't deserve my money anyway. Because of EQ Macros, and ONLY EQ Macros, have I gotten into playing EQ again. The amount of clicking in this game is absurd. And is the lack of information. EQ Macros solved all of these problems.
Keep working on this program. Until they send you a legal notice from a lawyer of some sort, you have NO reason to stop working on what you obviously love doing.
And once again, I thank you for all that you have done for the EQ community. This is a fantastic program, and it's sad to see some patethic money grubbing company complain about what somebody does.
Tim
10-05-00 02:57 AM
Edit
Ben,
So the big bullies without balls are upto their same ol' scare tactics again. Ben.. I beg you, dont just drop all this hard work because Verant thinks they own the world. We may be in "their world when playing the game" but your software isnt.
They have no legal precident that could possibly inhibit you from developing this program and selling it. That would be the exact same thing as Microsoft telling Sony/Verant that they cant Make EQ to work with Windows.
I truly hope you hire a lawyer, and settle this matter for good. It may cost a bit, but WHEN you win there will be no more avoiding Verant with your program and you will have greater exposure for sales.
And on a personal note, im still waiting for the day that someone nails Verant to the wall and shows them that they are not gods gift to gaming and that they cannot just push people around as they please. Christ, they're starting to sound like Microsoft.
Your in the position to do this, and nows as good a time as any. Be strong kind sir and shut those bastards up once and for all.
10-05-00 06:47 AM
Edit
I agree completly, I came here to order your product to make my life alot easier. Then I read it was "illegal" if you look at the UELA, and that you can loose your account. (as you can imagine, this is something that scares everyone)
To make things worse I have the newest hottest move of Verant here for you viewing pleasure. Dont not misunderstand the posting of these links, this is not my attempt to make a "rant" msg board (visit your local everquest whineplay board for this) but more to show that one can even be put on the "shit list" of verant of sending an email about you wanting a 3rd party developer program.
This is all about a person posting an in game (roleplayed) story on a public msg board 3! months ago, and getting banned for it.
It was on Lum's site I saw the news, so why not have him have another hit.
http://www.lumthemad.net/news/970718644,57681,.shtml
Read this for another good laugh about the subject and I agree with her Statements (Tweety is a ex-Guide that was "kicked" out after breaking a rule... the bad news was, they also banned her personal playing account)
http://tweety.bowlofmice.com/tweety/this_time_im_really_pissed_off.html
Anonymous (that wanted to buy EQMacro, but chickened out)
10-05-00 09:00 AM
Edit
I already sent Verant my e-mail strongly suggesting they develop a support program for people who write useful software.
Here's how I see it: I shouldn't and don't mess with their computers by attempting to hack my characters, etc. I will not tolerate them messing with my computer. If I want to run 18 different 3rd party programs on my comuter that I find useful while playing EQ, it's none of their business. So long as I don't attempt to infiltrate their systems, modify thier code, etc. it's completely none of their business.
They may argue that's it's cheating. I don't agree, but for the sake of discussion, let's just say it IS cheating. Guess what? Cheating while playing a computer game is NOT illegal. Making it possible for people to cheat while playing a computer game is NOT illegal. Their position is almost comical. They are very full of themselves, but they are in OUR world out here. And in OUR world, they are a small business.
I've worked for a law firm for twenty years. It's called a "Legal Letter" and it's designed to intimidate. I do not believe they have a leg to stand on. Further, I'm sure they know it.
Have you posted Verant's letter to you? Some attorneys might want to look it over and offer some opinions. I suggest you keep everything that happens with this very public. Don't let them scare you into being quiet. Post their letter and any others you get or send to them. Keep it very public.
I have an inventor friend who makes attachments for Singer sewing machines. They stole the first ideas he came up with because he innocently brought those first ideas to Singer. Since then he's sold his further inventions directly to the public for the last 40 years and there isn't a thing Singer can do about it. Nor should they be able to.
It's legal, it's helpful and inventive. Good work so far, Ben.
-Chimes
10-05-00 10:05 AM
Edit
One other question for everybody reading here:
How can Verant actually tell that you're using this program? Lets just say I want to use the map or location function only of this program. I go to the options and turn off the other mouse cursor. How can Verant see that I'm using this program?
If what I've read here is true, Verant would actually have to use the magical GM command to see what I see to tell that I'm using this program. But that means that Verant will have to use that command on all 300,000 or so people that play EQ. Do you have ANY idea how long that would take? That and the GM's have better things to do. Or is their next version of the client going to 'nerf' any programs that you have running alongside EQ (like my firewall, EQ Macros, etc)?
In conclusion, I do believe that EQ Macros is still safe to use. You'll just have to stop macroing, certain triggers, and any other actions that would look suspicious to any smart GM (like any trade skills at all). That's what I intend to do.
Tim
10-05-00 10:41 AM
Edit
My e-mail to Verant. I suggest everyone goto Http://www.aclu.org and get the address for their local, regional, and state chapters. The more letters they get, the faster they will look into this and make inquires. Usualy just the first phone call from them is enough to shake a company up.
********** E-mail to VI from my personal e-mail account*******
I am a long time subscriber to Sony station games. First Tanarus then Everquest.
I also have had a real issue with your lack of 3rd party programs. Not because I wish to dominate others but because your application does not allow for the use of the operating system's built in disabilities APIs. After hours of trying to get them to work with no success I had to inform the disabled user of my machine that Everquest would not work for them. Now I have heard that you are going after a 3rd party assistance program developer. It is well within your rights as an American but this letter is to inform you I have filed an official complaint with my local ACLU chapter. I will also file complaints with the regional and state chapters. If you choose to eliminate the injured and the handicaped from your game, I have no choice. Your disabling of the built in APIs that are required to be in each Operating system is unmentionable. The level of discrimination here is equal to that of a publicly available building not having ramps for the physicly challenged. This will be new legal ground but I am very sure that enough precedents have been made in other areas to find that you are discriminating against a large segement of the nation.
10-05-00 11:23 AM
I got the OK to put up a link to the Cease & Desist demand.
-Ben
10-05-00 11:25 AM
Edit
Hi Ben,
They are BIG, you are small. They have money, you do not. No amount of customers letters will change Verants mind. Third party support will be unlikly and even if implimeneted would take months to put in place.
EQm does violate the EULA people sign EVERY time EQ is played. Non-disabled people ARE violating that aggremant. Disabled people may have some additional options. If Verant Bans a person for using EQm they will little option except to sue under the Disability Act. To sue will take years unless a judge orders a 'restraining order' or Verant backs down.
Though I love your program it is not worth getting baned. IMHO the features of EQm enhance EQ play, as such Verant SHOULD allow people to use it, but ultimitaly it is their call.
IMHO you have not violated any law or agreement by mearly writing and distrubting EQm. It is only when EQm modifies the play of EQ are any agreemnets broken. As such here is MY ADVICE FOR YOU:
SELL OUT. You have put alot of time into EQm, you have enough talent to keep up with Verants attempts to detect EQm. As such you could make it very expensive for Verant to play cat and mouse with constant patches. If they are not willing to deal with you in a fair way make one last EQm version. Go open source with no lisence server, remove options verant might me able to detect, modify any code that will make EQm more dificult to detect. Then post this to a FTP site, open up and EZboard message group. Put your talents in D3D/DirectX to another use.
- Coed Naked EQm user
10-05-00 11:32 AM
Edit
My letter to my local ACLU. We need EVERYONE to get involved and send as many letter as possible. Use this as a form if you wish.
************************* Letter to local ACLU **************
My name is ************. I live in ****** county ****** in the city of **********. I visited your web site due to it's involvement with the Electronic Frontier Foundation.
I am writing in regards to an online service that hosts a few websites and runs several online games. These games are built on joint cooperation against artificial entities run by the game's servers in Southern California. The Company is Verant Interactive a subsidiary of Sony corporation. Their main money making game is called Everquest. It runs in a Windows based operating system. At this time, Verant has coded their game to disable any and all disability programs that run in the standard Microsoft API codes. Anyone using a program to compensate for a physical handicap is blocked from using the game. Also they have posted an End User License Agreement that forbids anyone from using any third party software in the game. None of these stipulations are listed on the box when purchased and several of these rules were added months after the game was released. The game involves allot of repetitive motion. Gameplay often dictates hours of direct interaction using these motions. To help people that are challenged by the mouse and keyboard several independent developers have created applications that relieve the stress of repetitive key strokes and also allow for keyboard and mouse functions to be prerecorded and executed with a single key. They have done so using a Delphi based engine that neither modifies or invaded the Everquest game client. Verant has publicly gone after these companies in an effort to stop them from making tools that can be used in parallel with their game client.
As it stands now Verant has disabled the standard interfaces used by thousands of handicapped persons. Once the game client is started all disabled persons are powerless to run their machine in the standard ways. They have now gone after the only other source of keyboard and mouse assist programs usable in their client. Basically this excludes anyone with a physical challenge from using the Everquest Client in a reasonable manner. It also forces people to play their way which involves repetitive motions for hours on end. This doesn't seem "right" at best and sounds invasive at worst. If they find that you are using a 3rd party program of any form they will cancel your account which leaves you with a 50 dollar CD and no way to play it. They do not offer refunds. They do not make their policy know on the game's packaging when it is sold.
I am starting a grass root letter campaign from other outraged Everquest users. With an advertised player base of 250,000 accounts this should be a significant number of people. I will also be contacting the Electronic Frontier Foundation as to the way Verant Interactive has addressed the 3rd party vendors.
Can you help?
Thank you for you time,
10-05-00 11:53 AM
Edit
Grrr...
I've sent my email. I'm tempted to copy the earlier posting and send a copy to my local ACLU office. This is prime bait for a discrimination action.
Ben, please just bide your time. If enough of us write to organization like EFF or ACLU, those hounds will gladly stick thier noses in it. Whether this will be good or bad, I don't really know. But organization like EFF and the ACLU can get results. Just gotta think though, if we really want the results they'll produce.